Reconstructed Faith + Americanized Church

In this episode, Amanda Davison and Jordan explore the deep issues within the church, including abuse, systemic dysfunction, and the importance of women finding their voice. They discuss how faith can be reconstructed and the need for authentic discipleship and accountability.

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Jordan Tanksley is a Coach with years of experience helping individuals navigate complex life transitions—from goal setting and entrepreneurship to business expansion. As her coaching practice evolved alongside her Master’s studies in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, she expanded her services to include trauma-informed coaching for individuals navigating or leaving toxic relationships—personally, professionally, and spiritually. Today, this deeply meaningful work forms the core of her practice. You can find her at @reconstructed_faith.

Transcript

Amanda Davison (00:00)
Jordan Tanksley is a coach with years of experience helping individuals navigate complex life transitions from goal setting and entrepreneurship to business expansion. As her coaching practice evolved alongside her master's studies in clinical mental health counseling, she expanded her services to include trauma-informed coaching for individuals navigating or leaving toxic relationships, personally, professionally, and spiritually.

Today this meaningful work forms the core of her practice. You can find Jordan's links below.

Amanda Davison (00:34)
In this episode, we have a candid conversation about the Americanized model of church, why it's important to not accept dysfunction as the norm, and why your voice matters.

Amanda Davison (00:47)
so one of the things, you know, I this it like pains me to say this, but I alluded to it when we started chatting. I worked, I was on staff at a church for years, ⁓ a number of years. And that I still wrestle with the Lord on that note because I'm like, Lord, why did you have me see all that? Why did you

Why did you put me in that place to observe the things I saw and hear the things I heard and witness the things I did because it made me so frustrated? And then we walked through another abusive church situation, and then our kids' school, there was sexual abuse that came to the forefront by a teacher that had been going on for years, covered up by the school. And so, you know, I've wrestled with that and

Jordan (01:30)
No. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Amanda Davison (01:36)
I really it's refreshing to find other people who love the Lord but do not love any of that and want nothing to do with it. And not only that, are really attempting to bring light to that and change that.

I guess I wanted to really pick your brain on the Americanized idea of church. What for you made you under s recognize that yeah, I don't think this is like what the Lord actually intended church to be, like our version, the systems, the

Jordan (02:10)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Davison (02:11)
you know, the abuses that we see, the covering up, the prioritizing the brands and the people ⁓ in leadership over the actual people in the pews. I mean, talk to me about that like what what made you come to that point of that realization?

Jordan (02:18)
Yeah.

Theology, just good theology, getting into the word, going to seminary, studying the Greek and Hebrew. I I honestly think that's it. It's just getting into Acts and just seeing like, okay, well in the New Testament, once they finally fill the Holy Spirit and they had done all these things with Jesus and it was time to go, you know, make sense at all, it says in Acts I think it's two forty eight.

the people had everything in common and no one was in want. And that blows my mind, you know? It's that as I imagine like a guy in a in a in an armari suit, you know, getting off a a job in finance and then being with a homeless woman. Or better yet, a high school cheer litter girl thirteen years old, you know.

I just imagine them sitting together and technically speaking they have nothing in common but in Jesus they have everything in common.

And that when I read that, that's what the spirit told me it meant. And then when I was in church I like, Yeah, we're not doing that. This is super clicky. This is like, what do you where do you live? Where's ri what's your zip code? At least I'm in l live in New York, so the church here is really money focused and really success oriented and hashtag blessed. Hashtag blessed around the rest of America is married kids. In New York it's married kids in like series cash.

You know, and maybe it is in other places too, but it's like a lot of emphasis on like what do you do for work and how much money do you have? And, you know, I was you know, I'm a single woman, right? And I I

I'm probably as capitalistic as everyone else here. You know, you kinda have to be a little bit you have crazy high rent and overhead. But I had this film propic side too that wanted to do non profit and was okay volunteering and was okay with just enough. I was okay with just having enough. And I don't want my identity in that stuff 'cause I tried out on that that outfit, you know, so to speak, and it wasn't fulfilling.

That's the whole reason I started going to church in New York City anyway, you know? So I got into church and like, this is just like the workplace. This is just like Manhattan cutthroat Manhattan real estate, which is what I do. This is no different. Except what was painful and confusing was that they would preach Christ on Sunday and then go behave that way.

And I think working on church staff too, I joined a church staff, went to seminary, gave my life to God in every way I could, what was painful was that disconnect. And then people would tell me, ⁓ but you know, it's you know, New York City jobs are like this. They're cutthroat and it's like it's like being at work. And they'd almost like r use some sort of like HR line on me to try to get me to be okay with it all. And I would say, You just compared

God's eternal family to an HR complaint at a cutthroat finance firm on Wall Street. Like, why are why are we doing that to survive what we're seeing? Why are we doing that to cope with what's happening? The fact that we've we're we're making God lucrative. You get an incredible amount of power and money when you work in ministry, especially in New York.

Especially in New York. Tons of these guys make six figures. These these guys were making as much as medical doctors at Redeemer Presbyterian Church founded by Tim Keller. That was something Tim Keller didn't put his foot down on, the greed. And he accommodated it and he created a bunch of monsters through his lack of leadership on those topics. So I would say, yeah, for to answer your question,

Amanda Davison (05:25)
Wow.

Jordan (05:45)
I know this hasn't been succinct, but to answer it finally, I would say what what made me realize there was a problem was education. Holy Spirit filled education. And this is why I believe everyone should learn the Bible, should be empowered in the Word, and that women especially should read it themselves without a man telling them what it means for them.

Amanda Davison (06:06)
Yes.

Jordan (06:06)
Because

they might be telling you what they want you to think it means because you're easier to control when you don't know the truth.

Amanda Davison (06:15)
I like that you said actual understand I think there's like this is what I found because I didn't surrender my life to Christ until I was twenty-nine. So here I jump into the Christian world, trying, you know, to do everything that I I'm I'm trying to figure out how in the world to live life now as a Christian, because I have no clue what that means. I'm going to church every Sunday, I'm listening to messages on my phone, I'm listening to podcasts, I'm watching

Jordan (06:35)
Right. Right.

Amanda Davison (06:42)
things. I'm I'm meeting with, you know, older women for coffee to download everything that they've ever learned. And in that process then when I obviously too I was in the word, but when I would open God's word, it was still through their filter. You know, because I had no one teaching me how to understand the context, the original meanings of words. I had no clue. And so I I feel like

Jordan (06:50)
Mm.

Right. Right.

Amanda Davison (07:11)
Today, unfortunately, we do need to give that disclaimer. And maybe you I I'm guessing you would agree is that, you know, we can't it's it's not enough anymore, I don't think, to just say go, you know, get into the word. It's almost like like you, your social media account is literally called on Instagram Reconstructing Faith. Or reconstructed? Reconstructed. Yes, reconstructed. And I think that's the thing is like

Jordan (07:14)
We did.

Re recon reconstructed faith, yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Davison (07:38)
Maybe how I'm even reading the Bible is through some other lens and filter that has been given to me. So when I read that one verse, I'm already under I I have a click in my head of what it's supposed to mean and how I'm supposed to interpret that because I've heard messages on that. So I already think that that's what it means, but it doesn't. And I or or it when you dig into that scripture, you understand it fully.

And have a completely different understanding of that in the way that it was supposed to be understood for us today. So thank you for saying that. And I think that that really does matter. ⁓ instead of just accepting and you know, ⁓ subscribing to what's been taught or told to us about ourselves and God and the marriage roles and all the things. So thank you for saying that. That's helpful.

Jordan (08:16)
It doesn't matter.

Course.

Amanda Davison (08:34)
I see you commenting a lot or or posting a lot. One of the things again that drew me to your account was leadership. how you see churches protecting its leaders and the systems, its own system over the sheep, over the people in the pews. do you wanna just download your thoughts to me on that or to all of us?

Jordan (08:47)
mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm

I

can do it. I'll try to be succinct. I could do an hour just on this topic. But I think it's the the grandiosity and the franchisement of the idea of a kingdom, a new kingdom in Jesus' name. It's taking what has been legitimized by his blood and sanctified by his personhood and his s and the Holy Spirit.

Amanda Davison (09:03)
Yeah.

Jordan (09:19)
And God's provision in him, it's taking that and it is capitalizing on it. And here is probably the biggest way I really see it shine. Shine's probably not the best word. Here's where I see it kind of like lording and being reigned over us in negative ways. When we talk about discipleship in church, or you read it in scripture.

There was a beginning of a person's encounter with Christ and their growth. There's a middle and then there's a going out. You know, Paul talks about you converting and he's he references you being a young Christian. He he says, you know, one at one time you were drinking milk, but now you're t eating solid foods. And he's raising up, in a spiritual sense, children of God. And that's exactly what Jesus charged Peter with: feed my lambs.

Amanda Davison (09:56)
Yeah.

Jordan (10:05)
feed my lambs. He calls them lambs. His baby, innocent, really vulnerable sheep. And so Paul is taking this seriously too, this discipleship concept. But and we see in the Bible and what happens with disciples. They're sent out. And never alone. They're in twos.

Amanda Davison (10:08)
Yeah.

Jordan (10:21)
And you know you don't need to get married in order to do it. You know, the guys went together all the time. The girls can go too. Or you can go together, co ed, for heaven's sake. It's twenty twenty six. I'm sure we could do it without there being a problem, right? You would open think. Yeah, I can. I I know my mind's in the right place.

Amanda Davison (10:29)
Yeah.

Yes, you would hope we've alright.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Jordan (10:39)
I my focus is on Jesus. I have work to do. Are you gonna help me or not? It would be nice to have a man there. It could help keep me safe because we live in a world where it seems to be okay to assault, violently assault women. You know? Just make a T V show about it after we're done, you know? That's where we're at in our culture. But anyway, I I digress. I I'll bring it back to when they're sent out, they're empowered and entrusted with all the truth.

Amanda Davison (10:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right, right.

Jordan (11:03)
They are considered to have arrived, so to speak, to the point where they'll lean on God when they need to, they'll ask for help, they'll pray through it. God will give them the words. They trust God'll provide. That was why Jesus said, When I send you out, put no money in your pocket, don't plan anything. God will provide everything. It was a metaphor for what he was gonna do spiritually for all of us. And he was gonna feed us. But he was gonna give us the words, he was gonna give us the knowledge.

Amanda Davison (11:23)
Mm-hmm.

Jordan (11:28)
What I find interesting in modern day churches, no one's being sent. You convert to these churches and you're expected to follow around a pastor and his wife every day, and they teach you, and you sit at their feet, and you listen, and you never arrive.

Amanda Davison (11:33)
Right.

Jordan (11:43)
You just need to keep going and learning and listening. And they're the ones with the answers. You're the one you're the person with not the answers. They know you don't know. You never know. Because they're ordained and you submit to them. Do you see that? That's really different than you're you're filled with the Holy Spirit. You can trust it.

We'll be walk you while you learn to listen to it and while you trust it. And then one day, ⁓ after solid food, you're gonna be sent out. You and go to make disciples of the world. Go make disciples of all nations. Like who's doing that work? Pastors? Just pastors? Really? ⁓ really? Because I remember the woman at the well was not seminary trained and never went to was she wasn't ordained. And she went by herself with no man.

Amanda Davison (12:11)
Yeah.

Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right.

Yes.

Jordan (12:29)
spoke and she converted her testimony led to the conversion of an entire town because she was empowered to speak by the Son of God. His name is Jesus. This is who condoned this behavior. So it's just

Amanda Davison (12:35)
Mm-hmm.

Jordan (12:42)
It's been blessed. Her story was blessed. She's mentioned, she's meant referenced to death in the Bible and thank God. But I I think that's what stands out to me the most is like I was realizing that, you know, I converted, I got real excited, I studied and I was like, Yay, Christian community, it's great when you're all like reading and learning and I went to seminary and I got the same degree the pastors did and then I was still just expected to sit and keep and then I finally asked, like, when do I arrive? Like, when am I done? When am I done? And the messaging was like, What do you mean when are you done? You're never done

And I was like, what do you True, we're all all being sanctified, ideally until the day we die, we're just getting better and better and better and more like Jesus throughout our lives, but I realized I was never going to be entrusted with the knowledge that I had. They wanted me to stay in a consumer mindset and they will be the providers. And conveniently tied with that model was we need your tithing money.

Amanda Davison (13:38)
Yes. Absolutely. Right. Yes, it is. It's a business. Have you watched the religion business? Okay. Yeah. I've I s yeah, it is. It really opens your eyes. I can link that below as well for anyone listening or watching. But you know, I I agree. That was one of the big things I was challenged with regarding the like what are we doing? I d I remember one Sunday sitting in church, looking around.

Jordan (13:40)
It's a franchise.

yeah. good.

Amanda Davison (14:07)
And there was this messaging around sort of giving to the people in the community very minimally. It was like, hey, it was like a dollar something. It was it was like a dollar club or dollar Sunday or something like that. And I was just heartbroken by that. And I but I remember because I'm like, wait a second, we're gonna give a dollar to the people that in our community that need it.

and I remember like looking around, looking at everyone, and they were just all no it no one looked concerned or confused by that notion of we're just gonna give our leftovers whatever, it's just maybe a dollar, that's great. If it's more, that's great. But also this this insulation of Christianity when like where are we w w I go into the jail, our our

Jordan (14:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Davison (15:03)
our county jail each week to meet with the women. And I'm so challenged because through that, I'm like, where are all the people? Where are all the followers of Christ? Not that you're you need to go into the jail if you follow Jesus, but I'm just saying, where do we see that happening? Why are we not hearing and and challenging and not only just talking about it, but like, no, we're gonna actually figure out a way to like, I don't know,

Jordan (15:12)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Davison (15:30)
Get everybody to do that. Because that's the point. That's why we're growing so that we can go and and disciple other people, really reaching them, loving them, building relationship with them. Why are we not doing that? When people in our community will never, ever, ever step foot in this building. And so that's kind of where it started for me too, which is just ⁓ interesting. ⁓ yes.

Jordan (15:48)
Yeah, it's that disconnect. Like I'm reading

one thing and I'm hearing them say one thing on Sunday from the pulpit, but then I'm waiting for it to s I'm waiting to see it translate in behavior and I'm not seeing the translation. Why is that?

Amanda Davison (16:01)
Yes. And I wanna

yes, yes. I wanna say for anyone listening, you know, listen to listening to Jordan say, you know, I had this knowledge and they wouldn't they they didn't want to send me out. they didn't entrust me with that. And even just this dollar Sunday idea. I'm sure maybe some of you are listening like, that's not my church. My church would never do that. They would totally, you know, set steward that gifting and

and help you, you know, discern that calling and and walk with you toward whatever the Lord would have. Amazing. And that's not our church. Our church, you know, gives a hundred percent of the tithes to the community. Whatever. Amazing. But would you say in all of the work that you do that that there is one that seems to be the norm?

Jordan (16:51)
In terms of how churches

Amanda Davison (16:53)
You know,

are operating, yeah.

Jordan (16:58)
It's tricky 'cause I I I experience the same thing you do, Amanda, which is people write me in not my church, not my church. They always want me to know, not mine. Very rarely do I hear people that say that are willing to admit the the balance of it. Because we're it notice we're willing to admit it. There are churches out there doing good work. I've never said that they're I've never said that it's not true. All I'm doing is pointing out

Amanda Davison (17:17)
Yes.

Abs absolutely.

Jordan (17:24)
How I'm I'm I was a part of a mega church in New York City founded by a by a man named Tim Keller, Dr. Tim Keller, who was the top fifty most influential in the people in the world list. And everyone told me I was privileged to learn from him and be in seminary with him and sit h at his feet. And I would say sometimes that was true, and he was a broken sinner like everyone else, and sometimes he hurt me.

He hurt me through his patriarchal notions of how women should do things and his covering up and helping cover up abuse for years, his codependency with his narcissistic wife. I I've said all this on social media and will continue because ever and I'm waiting for them to send me a lawsuit because I can prove it. I have all these emails just like look at these years of antagonizing abuse from Kathy Keller. Why didn't Tim help me?

Amanda Davison (18:12)
Yeah.

Jordan (18:13)
Why

was I subjected subjugated to to dealing with his son and all the antics and so what what I found is I have my own experience.

And it's very limited in in denominations, let's just say. Church of Christ is my background, and then I converted later to Presbyterianism, the PCA Presbyterian Church of America. Okay. So I got like two I got one den non-denom church was a super culty. Church of Christ is is it's congregationalist, but like a lot of them are pretty culty. And then we have this the the exact opposite, which is h you know, high church, like governance, and they got headquarters and I got like the whole it's very, you know, it's very political.

Amanda Davison (18:27)
Mm-hmm.

Jordan (18:51)
how they do things. So I've had both experiences and yet both experiences have led me to damage and trauma, which is I keep relying on institutions of men. So people want me to know that. from your experience then. And I I've I've reiterated that so many times, Amanda. Yes, from my experience. Here's what shifted though.

is I suffered alone for ⁓ years before pandemic on this stuff. I was gaslit, I was silenced, I went through hell and back emotionally 'cause I felt so I felt like I was going crazy.

Amanda Davison (19:15)
Right.

Yeah.

Jordan (19:24)
'cause I was going through these things I was like, hey, you know, but ⁓ and women were just served NDAs and just kicked to the curb and I was just socially annihilated, slandered to the moon and back. Like to this day, I'm like, I will never work in Christian ministry again because apparently you're not allowed to call out power and get to keep working in ministry. So you know what I said? Fine, I'll just go get another masters in clinical mental health, I'll become accounts come be I'll become a counselor and I'll just keep talking about this and I'll wait for your lawsuits. I can't wait to take those guys on in court.

Amanda Davison (19:52)
⁓

Jordan (19:52)
I will fight for my own voice. So what ended up shifting was after pandemic, I noticed on social media all these individuals coming forward from other dom denominations. I started listening more to Diane Langberg and long running historical emphasis on how women in the church have the same symptoms as post traumatic stress disorder survivors of the Vietnam War. So I started listening more to that, like, hey, that resonates.

Amanda Davison (19:54)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Яс.

Yes.

Yeah.

Jordan (20:21)
Then I started noticing the Hillsong victims come forward in their documentary. Then the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill documentary. sorry, podcast about Mark Driscoll and listening to that and hearing how that how much that resonated. And then it was just like all the all the stuff that happened. All the stuff that came out with the scandals, Southern Baptist Convention, Ravi Zakaris. And then it was

All of that collected together on the Roy's report.

Amanda Davison (20:51)
Yes. Yeah.

Jordan (20:51)
Someone got me into that. And I started paying

attention to that. And then it was these accounts like yours popping up. And and you know, we're we're joining this band, this mighty band of amazing warriors who've before us have started this. Except for them, they did it compl you know, we were fighting on our own on the silence. But people that really came forward, the victims of the Southern Baptist Convention is what I'm thinking of right now. And many others, they suffered slander campaigns to the point of huge financial.

financial detriment and loss and suicidal ideation, some lost their lives

Amanda Davison (21:21)
Yeah.

Jordan (21:24)
to the mental health plight that this can inflict. When I finally started speaking up, I felt like I was coming on the coattails of some pretty spectacularly brave people who I have a lot of respect for. And one of the reasons I feel called to keep speaking up is in their memory for the ones that didn't make it. And in the memory of those who've suffered so much, they're exhausted. And it's just like, yeah, take the bench for a little bit, we'll go on the court, we'll play for a little bit, and then when once you're turning you come back and we'll trade places like we all need to take our turn

This. I don't know how long I'm gonna talk about it. It kind of feels like for the rest of my life, because I have a pretty high standard for like what the church should be because I read my Bible. But I I I think that it's it's it's it's all of it. It's just being honest about the reality and what we've been seeing and finding courage and comfort and validation from the s survivors who've already spoken out. I mean, how validating.

Amanda Davison (21:53)
Mm.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Why do you think there are so many people who do not want you or me or Julie Royce or anyone championing the beauty of what the church should ought to be? Why do you think there are so many people saying be quiet? I I literally I don't know if you saw I had posted something not long ago and there was a woman in our old community who

In all caps was essentially she was yelling at me just stop be quiet Enough Enough.

Jordan (22:51)
Yeah. I believe it. You

don't have to show me any proof. I know it I know that got sent to you publicly.

Amanda Davison (22:57)
Yep, absolutely. Right,

right, it did. She later deleted it because my daughter actually responded, which was beautiful. ⁓ and I think I think she was a little taken back by her response. But anyway, I was bummed about that. But why do you think I mean I I think we know, but I if you're listening and you're like, I don't like this conversation, it kind of makes me uncomfy. Like, why do we have to talk about this? Is okay, sure, that was your experience. Torn that was your experience, Amanda. Okay, sure, there's a bunch more people, but like

Jordan (23:17)
Comfortable.

Amanda Davison (23:27)
I don't know. Our church is doing so many great things. Like God is moving at our church. Our church has so many baptisms, so many people are being saved, so many new people, just like adding people left and right. Why do you guys have to talk about this? Like, and can you just not? I think, please. What do you like? Why do you think that's so many people's response?

Jordan (23:43)
Mm-hmm.

I you know, I feel like I'm putting on my counselor hat right now. I'm like, ooh, this would be a fun, like, hypothetical client. If they were in the chair in front of me and they were like, Why do my family have to bring this up? I would probably ask a question like, What is lost? What do you lose? What is what do you feel like your body's losing, your soul's losing, like the faith's losing, like what the church is losing? What is being hurt and harmed by someone?

defending the tenets of the faith and and the standard of love. Like what's lost. And if I had to guess, there is the true church and then there's the comfort idealized image of the church. Like an idol. And I've said this on my podc my videos, not podcasts, they're Instagram videos. I'm not as organized and tech savvy as you. But I

I've noticed the patriarchal cult has has infiltrated the church. For so many years I was trying to figure out what

Why can't I get a singles ministry started? Like why is a marriage idolized to like an unbelievable level to the point where it's like you cannot stay single, even though Paul says right here, like pretty clearly, why is that never taught? You know, it's just it was it was more back to like I'm seminary trainer, read my Bible, and then I started being I started asking more questions. And I always I kinda jokingly tell the people that train me who are mad at me now that I'm talking, like, you train me. Do not educate people on Greek and Hebrew if you think that they're not going to

Hold hold you to your hold you to the standard you taught me. I'm reading it, it's right there. They think they're the ones that are experts in how it's synthesized. I'm Holy Spirit filled too. So are you, and so is everyone listening. We have the same Holy Spirit in us as our pastors.

Amanda Davison (25:20)
Yes.

Jordan (25:20)
Has

he empowered you to trust it, yes or no? And so real quick back to I I love to digress, so bear with me. But back to the original question, what would I say is the reason that people ask that. They they just they value their comfort. They value

the image they think the church is, which is that's where they put their hope. It is perfect. It's it's like God. It's infallible. It's it's it will save me. The church will save me. Not God. The church. So they're putting their faith in the institution of men. And one of the hardest, most painful things a deconstructing Christian will go through is letting go of that white knuckle grip of the fantasy that the church, community and family is their their hope.

Amanda Davison (26:02)
Mm-hmm.

Jordan (26:02)
When Jesus said, I had to die for all of you. You're putting your hope in people that need it. They're so they're so far from God before they meet him. They needed to be died for. Well, then they got then they converted to communion and now they're my brother. Right. And Jesus said, Bear with one another, confess to one another daily. It it's messy.

Amanda Davison (26:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan (26:25)
And I know Jesus got tired. He's a human and divine, all in one. And there's one verse where he says, How long do I have to be down here with you people? I find comfort in that verse all the time when I'm tired of church people. Because I'm like, if the the Son of God, the most perfect human being, our God incarnate, if he felt that way, then I yeah, then I feel like I'm invited to also just be tired. So I take Sabbath rest from from people at church too.

Amanda Davison (26:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Jordan (26:52)
they have

high expectations for the image and their fantasy, but when we show them reality, they get angry at us. But that's how you know where their loyalty lies. Why are they telling us to be quiet? Because they actually have a God built in there. And it's the leadership. They worship the patriarchal leadership. Why can't they go just quickly tell the pastors, would you acknowledge this if we can end this conversation? Why don't they go do that?

Amanda Davison (27:10)
Wow.

Right.

Jordan (27:17)
It's easier to get onto people like us because we have no power and we're not the fantasy. There are pastors of the fantasy.

Amanda Davison (27:20)
Yes. Yes. And

And the idol that has been built within whatever system they are a a part of, if this is true, if I look at it, if I have to admit that this is happening within the four walls of XYZ, then that might change a lot for me. My whole paradigm might have if I even believe a little or listen to a little bit of it.

It might change everything for my family, my c my own community, the my friends. and if I even for a second even believe it could be true, not only listen but and look at it, but like believe it could be true then, I know the result, what that result will be. It will be the same, like you said, that it is for us. ⁓ she's divisive, she's trying to tear down the church, she's causing blah blah blah, right? And which is in fact the exact opposite of

The point of us speaking at all. Why don't you talk about that? I mean, that is the that's what pains me and and fuels me at the same time is the whole for me, the whole purpose of bringing the bringing this all into the light and helping women ditch all the junk that's been put on them is so that we can be the church. We can operate. The kingdom of God can actually operate here on earth.

As he intended it to be, ⁓ full and free. And we are not. I do not see that happening. And so why to me, I'm like, why wouldn't we want to examine that? Why wouldn't we want to admit we're missing the mark? but why don't you just speak into that a little bit?

Jordan (29:03)
Well, you know what would be fun to say to someone who said that to you? Why can't you just stop talking and you know, you're you're hurting the church? It'd be fun to be like, I am the church. I am the church. A member of your congregation is saying they were hurt and the most precious thing that was ever left for us, our inheritance, he's w which is one another. I'm telling you, I got hurt, and you're worried about what now?

what people outside the church might think of us or we're hurting the pastor's feelings. What they're basically saying is the pastor is the church and you're not the church. You only get to be the church if you shut up and you do what that guy over there says. And it's just like he's not my God. I don't work for him.

Amanda Davison (29:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Or that brand. Yeah.

Jordan (29:43)
And I think all of this has just changed, you know, submission for me, submission dynamics. You know, I have I have a I have a boss. I'm at a a mental health clinic right now and I have an owner of the company, right? It's her it's her clinic. I submit to her, right? She is my boss, and then I will continue to submit to her while she does the incredible work that she does. Except if she starts breaking the laws.

Amanda Davison (29:49)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Jordan (30:08)
Then I will whistle blow, I will get ethics boards involved, and I will leave this job.

Hopefully without being too damaged, you know. I'll leave with my head held high and I will hopefully get some accountability and keep clients safe. You know what I mean? This is all not happening, that's hypothetical. I'm making up, but it's the same exact thing. So when I'm like, I'm not submitting to that pastor there because he's been molesting women and he's gaslighting and he's emotional abusing. my gosh, you're not a submitter. It's like, what? You are anti you are a feminist liberal who's anti-submitting. It's like I submit every day. I I follow traffic.

signs, I have a boss, I pay ⁓ la rent to my landlord, and I follow the building rules, I recycle. Like I f I submit all the time. I'm an excellent submitter. You know, we all to be honest, like most of us are, if you think about it, if you're not in jail, we're submitters, including men. Where did we somehow confound this with

Amanda Davison (30:56)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jordan (31:09)
Yes, but if you're a really truly good female submitter in the church, it'll turn a blind eye to illegal activities and over e and covert abuse. Like I never signed up for that. I signed up to follow Jesus. So it's it's more case in point, Amanda. They're following these little demigods that they cr they've created in their mind. And I think the human condition is we are so easily pre predispositioned to want to worship each other.

Amanda Davison (31:24)
Yeah.

Jordan (31:36)
through social media, through our our our icons, our the bands, the actresses, the models. We're always trying to find somebody, our gurus, our self-help books. We're always trying to find someone to offload our own spirituality onto. So that we don't have to take responsibility for it ourselves. And anyone that comes in and starts challenging that, if you're not ready to look at the reality, you feel defensive and threatened.

Amanda Davison (31:55)
Mm-hmm.

Jordan (32:03)
Because if you start that with this, you're gonna have to look at your family of origin. You're gonna have to look at your marriage. You're gonna have to start talking about some really painful stuff. That's why people don't wanna do it with this stuff. Is because there are other hot things in their life that are burning and they don't want to acknowledge where the flames are coming from and they're they wanna be burned alive and face the fact that maybe their mom's abusing them. Or their boyfriend's been cheating on them this whole time. They're in denial.

Amanda Davison (32:14)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Jordan (32:29)
So, really,

the end of the day, Amanda, when you get these comments, this is not about you. You're you're on the right track. I love your work. You're trying to protect the church. You're trying to uphold all that you hold dear and uphold the standard in the name of a love for God and man and church. That's beautiful. People that push back are not emotionally ready and willing. It's willful denial. At this point, with all the data. It's willful denial.

Amanda Davison (32:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Jordan (32:56)
of the facts because they don't want to lose their comfort, which is a house built on sand and it will come crashing down.

Amanda Davison (33:03)
Yes. Yes.

It is so sad to see the reality. I was in a deep depression for almost a year, ⁓ after the sexual abuse came to our knowledge, and then we passed it on to the school. The school did not pass it on to the police, so we did. And the response from the church in our community, w meaning the people.

that had been a a part of that organization and and a sister during a few churches in our community was so grievous. I mean, I could not almost bear the weight of the stories that had come in of harm done to so many women and how, you know, just how that had been handled, essentially not at all, ⁓ quietly, nothing was done. And the the people in the community that

Jordan (33:48)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Davison (33:54)
were tied deeply to these places, protected the places, the the people at the places, not the kids, not the stories, not the survivors, not the ones who would come forward and the pain is so real. And I think that for anyone, you know, that is not uncommon. That response is not uncommon. And that should hopefully cause us to just sit with that for a while.

And wrestle with that for a while. What are we doing as the church? Really? If that is rampant across the Americanized church, the respon and I'm just talking about responses to harm or abuse in our midst. why what good are we doing? We we actually, I would say, are complicit in the harm by not helping fix that. ⁓ and so it's it's it is, yes, yes.

Jordan (34:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're dangerous. Yeah, those

in willful denial are dangerous to the church and to me and you. I have a question for you if you don't mind. W like for the people who are like coming in basically gaslighting you. When you when you just said run it's running rampant, that's how I felt.

Amanda Davison (34:50)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jordan (35:07)
I felt like it's so obvious. I feel like I'm running around trying to convince people with the way they're treating me, like, well I haven't seen it. I just keep I keep getting gaslit and I maybe you are too. But I feel like it's rampant. You feel like it's rampant.

I think they're playing us. I I think that they're getting us to run around acting like it's not obvious. And

I don't know. I I I just wanna know like how you're navigating that how how are you standing up against that overt gaslight of I thought it was obvious too, but they're acting like it's not. Like right? Like don't we have enough that's that that's how I've been feeling lately, is like half crazed on this topic because I feel like we have enough evidence in the Royce report and like and beyond, like the all the things that listed, why are people still

Amanda Davison (35:43)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I think number one, be for me, I feel like so many people s prefer to stay in the bubble of not knowing and pretending. And so as long as I can pretend, I again don't have to look at all of those things you might be referencing. I'm not, I just am gonna say far enough away to not even really pre like I don't even want to glance over at that.

Jordan (36:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda Davison (36:26)
So a lot of people again just don't want to, but even the people that maybe, for example, in our community are aware that there was a police report or yeah, or or charges brought, or maybe they even read the report. Mm-hmm. But they and they they read the report. They in essence, many of them tell themselves a story because again, I come back to if they have to

Jordan (36:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's like right here.

Amanda Davison (36:54)
If they admit to themselves that this happened, not only that the teacher did it, but the two leaders of the school allowed it to happen over years and did nothing to protect the kids. If they have to admit any of that, then their whole p kingdom will crumble. Meaning, and and what happened to my husband and I in our family will happen to them. And they know that. So what for me, what they're too afraid. They they cannot.

If they agree with any of what happened, that is they lose community. Their kids lose their friends. I mean, they will be shunned just like we were. And so there's a part of that reality that I know is true for them. But also for me, like you said, I've got receipts. I have recorded converse we have recorded everything, every conversation. We have emails, we have emails, we have emails, we have text messages, we have photos, we have we have

Jordan (37:47)
Do you have emails?

Amanda Davison (37:52)
So much stuff. We have everything, everything that we've said and shared, we have proof of and for. And so I think for me, when I've experienced this on a such a small scale, and I'm made aware of like, whoa, I'm not alone. This has happened to how many other people. It it, you know, I I I just think that it's the only reason someone would not understand.

Jordan (37:54)
Yeah.

Amanda Davison (38:20)
that this is common is because again they are refusing to admit that it could be because there's something at risk if they happen to believe or look and see that it actually is existing there anywhere. Yeah.

Jordan (38:34)
It's back to willful denial. And

what you added. They're afraid. They essentially what are they afraid of? They're afraid of becoming like us. They're making our point for us. What do you mean you're afraid of becoming like us? So you're saying we haven't been treated well. Why are you s this is how we gotta get up under some of these antics is look at the behavior and then help people become aware aware of why they're behaving that way. What are you afraid of?

Amanda Davison (38:49)
Yeah.

Mm. Yes.

Jordan (38:59)
I thought

I I've been treated great by the church, right? I haven't. So you know and have them see that they on some level already know, if even if they're not admitting it.

Amanda Davison (39:02)
No.

Jordan (39:10)
And then I think for me, just I'm gonna start making some boundaries. I'm just like I don't have time to explain the obvious I don't wanna put any more time and energy into running around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to get you to see something that's in the newspapers every day. Like I don't have time for this. Either you're with fighting against this and making the church a safer place for all people and like more like the kingdom of God, or you're not. And I know what team I'm on.

Amanda Davison (39:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Amen to that. There have been, you know, so many stories of women who will never come forward, right? We know that. who will never share their stories, and men. And that is the one thing too you ask, like, how do I withstand or or this all of the pushback? And that is one of the reasons that is one of the things that has kept me

strong and fueled me to to keep on sharing and being honest about what happened and is happening is all of these stories have come to us saying like thank you. Some have finally admitted to themselves what happened to them because we are sharing about it. you know, others are finally saying it to people for the first time so they can find healing. And, you know, they're they're starting to dissect their own experiences and and come into that place of freedom. And

that also helps so much because there's so much oppression and shame in the in the church and it it ought not be there. And so I know that the fruit of this work is that is freedom. Are men and women hearing this and becoming awakened to what's happened to them and f and and wanting more, knowing that there ought to be more for the church and the kingdom of God here. So yeah, it's

Jordan (40:33)
I know.

Yeah.

Not settling. There is more. I have a fun I have a fun little update to share with you. I had a friend who I've been trying to talk to about narcissistic abuse and the churches, church world for for years, like seven years. And then today he finally texted me. I I think I'm a victim of narcissistic abuse. And I just want it was such like a thank God. He finally

Amanda Davison (40:52)
Yeah. Yes.

yeah.

Okay.

Wow.

Jordan (41:16)
It's hard for men to admit they've been abused, right? So there's that. He did it though. And it took him seven years. And I've been talking to him about this till I was blue in the face. And I was like, not giving up, but more like I'm tired. It reminded me, keep talking. On on your platforms, with your friends, just be that broken record that's like, if you're gonna bring up church health, I have a very you know, I have a mantra I like to state, and you know, usually it doesn't include emotional abuse. You know, like

Amanda Davison (41:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Jordan (41:43)
I have a very strict I'm not changing my standards. Just like my food preferences or you know, just like with everything that I hold dear that I think is important for me or that I like, my standard of what is a healthy church isn't changing. Not after what I've been through.

Amanda Davison (41:46)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yes,

yes.

Jordan (42:00)
So if I just keep surrounding myself with people who are willing to hear that and then with people who don't want to hear that, just keep talking online anyway. Maybe collectively one day it'll click because people will click at different rates, speeds. You never know when it's gonna click. But if if we can all do it together, we might see some collective change. I mean, we've changed. We we have.

Amanda Davison (42:07)
Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Yes. And it very ⁓ thank the Lord for that. And I think too, to speak to, you know, some of your posts you reference how, you know, dysfunction becomes acceptable in the norm. And I and that's part of what we see going on. And a barrier. It's a barrier to real work and transformation in the church, I think, is is exactly that. If if we are told,

You know, don't listen to them or you know, ⁓ and and all this is this is this happens everywhere, you know, everyone sins. No church is perfect, and you know, it it it it paints, like you say, dysfunction, harm, abuse, and a picture, a light of almost normal, even holy. you wanna say anything to them?

Jordan (43:10)
I think that we have to remember where our parents come from, you know, a generation where emotions were a weakness and y you children were to be seen and not heard and definitely that was the case for women. people have been in a utilitarian fashion been set up to be consumed, right? Especially in a patriarchal society. You have a role to play and you fill that role and it's all to serve.

Who was the beneficiary of that that setup? And it's not women and it's not children, not in a patriarchal culture. Like what that's what everyone needs to be honest about. You know you're in a patriarchal culture. No one no one disagrees with you on that. Everyone in the nation knows is a patriarchal culture. What does that mean? What does it cost us? What did it cost our parents?

We've inherited this hot mess. It's not something we fought. We were we participated in it and grew up in it. We inherited it. And so I think unpacking all of that, where did it come from? What impact did it have on my family of origin, my parents, my my aunts, my cousins, and just realizing that if a generation wants more, wants to do better and is not okay with what's been handed to them, they need to be cycle breakers.

Amanda Davison (43:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan (44:18)
And

people are doing it in their family of origin all the time with toxic abuse. What if we as Christians in the church family did the same and started to ask questions of what we've been handed and then asking God and one another, was this the original design and or could we do better? And I'll just like bring a little hope into it. Like if we really believe as Christians that we're sanctifying.

Wouldn't the church be sanctifying? How could the church have already arrived if it's made up of a bunch of sanctifying, slowly becoming more like Jesus and enlightened beings made in his image? Like the church, I have not lost hope in the church because I haven't lost faith in me. I haven't lost faith in you. I haven't lost faith in my fellow man. I believe Jesus has the power to change your life.

And make you want to live forever. And he can cast the power to make sure that you do. He gives you the will to live and then he gives you life. That's who he is. And I I think that to answer that question, ⁓ do is there is there hope with the hot mess that we've been handed? Yes. And that is why I speak up.

Amanda Davison (45:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jordan (45:25)
And

it's also why I'll not settle for an abusive pastor who's manipulating and who's coercive or stealing money. I'll never submit to that ever again. Why would I do that? I love Jesus. I'm not afraid of man. So I would say let's start there, how do we get to where we're at patriarchally and where we headed?

Amanda Davison (45:35)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's good, that's good. It takes courage and bravery to look at that and to admit that and to like you say, look at your grandpa or your parents, your grandparents, and how they I mean, there's so much to unpack. And like you said, if we're honest, we can see the damage, the harm. I mean, unless you ⁓ I mean, I wanna say there are absolute pictures out there that that was not the case, but

that's I'd say rare and how it has harmed us and children. And again, we've been conditioned to stay silent on so many things so that there can be this maintained picture of power within our cultures of family, of of you know, school, home, church, all the workplaces, all the things anyway. and it's brave to look at it. Yeah, it's so brave.

I want you to speak into and I know that we're out of time here but could you just speak to the women listening? So many women have lost their voices. So many women I would say don't even believe that they have a voice worth sharing. Again, in their own home even, because they've been conditioned to believe that that they're secondary.

What do you want to say to them? Because I think I feel like so much of what we're talking about and the hope that you are sharing with us. I believe that is so true and it's encouraging. But I do believe that in order for this, for the church to become more holy, it will take women understanding that they have a voice. but we've been so silent. So do you want to speak into that?

Jordan (47:35)
Yeah, sure. I I for me it comes from the life of Christ. It's just reading all the scriptures and his his encounters with with women and the way he treated women. I would say that that first and foremost, when I get really discouraged and down at our plight as women, I remember what he did for us.

When Mary of Bethany was pouring the anointing oil on his feet before he was to die, Judas interrupts and it says that he wanted the perfume money for himself, because it was like a whole year's wage. And Jesus says, Be quiet and leave her alone. Leave her alone. Let her be. He does that for me when he gives me the confidence to speak about what I know is right.

Now you might be thinking, what he what gives you the right to think you can do this, Jordan? Well, when he died and he entrusted us to not be orphans in this world, he entrusted the Holy Spirit to come and guide us. He anointed all of us. That's as anointed as you're ever gonna get is to be Holy Spirit filled with a member of the Trinity that lives in your heart.

guides you. If you're a converted Christian, it's not like and you're a woman. It's not like you have a girl version of that that's stupid, dumber, weaker, and has a cute little pink bow in its hair and doesn't know what it's talking about. And the guys do. It's we're all given the same gift in baptism. And scriptures talk about that same inheritance that awaits us. We're gonna be firstborn sons as women, and men are called the bride of Christ with us.

So there's so many things that are coming that we can't even conceive because we're we're trying to look through this eternal lens from our our culture, our patriarchal culture that has human flaws and limitations, and that's just not the framework that God works in. And proof of that are the things that I've already stated. And then I would just say

Last, one thing that really encourages me to keep talking and to stand up for myself and take responsibility for my value systems, my theology, what I believe, and I believe part of that speaking that out, that's how I affirm it. You become really who you are when you say things out loud. You rewire your subconscious. You own it, it becomes real the minute that you say it. If we when we take away the voices of women, we're hindering their faith. We're hindering their ability to believe when they're not able to speak.

Amanda Davison (49:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Jordan (49:46)
So one of the reasons I keep speaking is because on the day of judgment when I meet my Lord, and I can't wait. I won't be there with my pastor. He will not be there with me. Scripture says we all go before the lone before the Lord alone the way that we came into the world. Naked and solo. You can't take your husband, can't take your boss, can't take your pastor. No one will intercede for you.

Amanda Davison (49:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan (50:12)
And say, well, the reason she's giving that answer, Lord, for how unaccounting for her life is I told her to, he's gonna cut your pastor, excuse me, get out of the way. Steward, get out of the way. I'm talking to her. And that right there gives me the confidence to take ownership of what how I'm gonna answer.

Amanda Davison (50:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Jordan (50:32)
There's any pastor that is even remotely indicating that he's going to get you to heaven, he is a false prophet. He's a false God. We have a direct line to God, our Father, through Jesus. I can talk to him whenever I want. I don't need a past a pastor originally showed me how to do that. Tim Keller led me to my faith. I'm very thankful for that. So yeah, I can do both. I can call him out and I can also give thanks for his life. He led me to faith. Thank you so much.

Amanda Davison (50:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jordan (51:00)
Okay, now that part's like, now I'm now I'm in remember I'm discipled. Like I'm it's done. I don't need to go ask Tim Keller, hey, am I allowed to speak about my faith? I don't need his permission. So neither did the woman at the well. She got nobody's permission. She just ran and went. So I think that's really what keeps me going is the day of judgment. I will be standing before the Lord.

Amanda Davison (51:11)
Right. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jordan (51:25)
solo and I'm not afraid and I do want to give a good answer for the questions he might have for me about how I spent my time. And if he asks me, you saw all this b abuse going on in the church, you know, why didn't you say anything about it? I don't want my answer to be because I was in living in denial and I was too afraid of being becoming like that scapegoat Amanda.

I just don't want that to be the answer. I want it to be, Lord, I I kept view of you the whole time and even though it was hard, I knew that this life is temporary and in a blink of an eye I'd get to meet you and I knew that you would be everything I hoped you would be and that time is over and this is forever.

Amanda Davison (52:02)
Yes, yes.

Jordan (52:05)
We're not here that long.

Amanda Davison (52:07)
Right? Right. And this is that's I I I there's a seriousness to this. I hope if you're listening or watching, you feel empowered to seek for yourself what you think, what you bel what you find in scripture to be true, not what someone has handed to you or placed upon you or told you to believe.

Jordan (52:14)
Yes.

Amanda Davison (52:31)
But for you yourself, you have the power of the Holy Spirit alive inside of you to help you discern what his word says for yourself. And so do that. Get brave. That's what we're doing. We're getting brave. We're we're untangling all of those things that have actually held us back, oppressed us, hindered us from being who God created us to be. So I'm I'm so grateful for you, Jordan. I every again, all of Jordan's stuff is linked below. And I'm just

Jordan (52:54)
Need you.

Amanda Davison (52:59)
Championing the work, and I'm I'm so prayerful that there are going to be so many awakened to what's happening in their midst because when they meet God themselves, the exact same picture you just you know defined and described for us, that's for each of us, and we will be held accountable, we will be asked those questions, and I hope we wake up and get really ready for that. And so thank you so much.

Jordan (53:26)
I'm gonna

face plant. I'm gonna get so low, I can't wait to bow down to him. So when people say it seems like you have trouble submitting, I'm like you I can't wait to get the lowest in his I don't have a problem submitting, I just submitting to the right person.

Amanda Davison (53:30)
Yeah, I know. I agree. I agree.

Yeah, yeah.

And they would say, You're not submitting the way we want to who we want you to, right? That's what we don't that's what we mean, what people mean when they say that you're from submitting. That's what they're that's what they're trying to say. And we don't play that game. We don't we don't do that. Yeah.

Amanda Davison (53:58)
You're listening to the Amanda Davison podcast where we ditch the spiritual lies and pressure that's been dumped on us so we can live free and confident in who God actually created us to be. So let's get brave.

Hey, don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button. You can also sign up for my Friday emails, follow me on Instagram, the Amanda Davison. You can watch on YouTube and shop my Instagram. All are linked below.